tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7251693339364322895.post1746838340113732709..comments2024-02-16T07:42:10.015-06:00Comments on SKEPTIC REFLECTIONS: HOLY ROLLERS TO CHARISMATICSJOHN PHILLIPShttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06357524637192990158noreply@blogger.comBlogger7125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7251693339364322895.post-55613413292580765102017-04-02T15:18:51.294-05:002017-04-02T15:18:51.294-05:00Dennise, I did take a look at the Hindu Kundalini ...Dennise, I did take a look at the Hindu Kundalini video. The behavior of those in the video seemed to be more animated than what I witnessed in 1970. But the difference seemed to be along a continuum. I'm not sure how to distinguish them qualitatively as opposed to quantitatively. It appears that religious experience can be highly varied.JOHN PHILLIPShttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06357524637192990158noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7251693339364322895.post-61351129447874266482017-04-02T13:56:53.850-05:002017-04-02T13:56:53.850-05:00Dennise, thank you for your comments. I do not kn...Dennise, thank you for your comments. I do not know if you will check back to see if I responded, but I hope you do, because I have a few followup questions to ask. (You can also respond in a private message on FB if you would prefer.) When you spoke in tongues was it voluntary or involuntary? When speaking in a "tongue" which you didn't understand the meaning of, were you comfortable? Personally, if that happened to me, i might be frightened by a lack of personal control. Do you feel a presence or is it something you just do? <br /><br />I can understand how the NT writers could have described early apostolic speaking in actual foreign tongues as a means of missionary witnessing. But years ago I did a bit of reading on this, including research by multi-linguists who listened to recordings of those speaking in tongues to see if they could identify the language being spoken. In general, they couldn't match up what the speakers were saying with any known language, so they concluded either that the glossolalia was not real language or that the speakers were channeling "dead" languages.<br /><br />Yes, as an atheist, I have always considered glossolalia to be a purely psychological experience.JOHN PHILLIPShttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06357524637192990158noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7251693339364322895.post-76807389983887850752017-04-02T12:20:14.628-05:002017-04-02T12:20:14.628-05:00From Dennise H. I never really thought too much ab...From Dennise H. I never really thought too much about Pentecostals until I had a boyfriend [in the late 1970's] who belonged to a charismatic church. They seemed to be sincere and genuine Christians, and when meeting in a small group setting with my friends Bible group, most were speaking in tongues during our prayer time. I went to their church once and don't even remember what went on there so it must have been fairly tame. <br />My thought on tongues is very similar to this 5 minute presentation on FB because it mirrors , NT teaching and is of common sense. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N8AoMm3iTcc<br />Most people I know who speak in tongues [and I don't know that many] do so during individual prayer time altho I have noticed a few people will do so very quietly under their breath even in church. I have not spent much time in Pentecostal churches, so am speaking only from experience in my local non-denominational, evangelical church. From a few of my friends who experience prayer tongues, they describe it as a means of greater intimacy with God, but they don't really know what they words mean, except they think it is praising God. I have spoken in tongues a few times in private, but haven't really noticed it made me "feel" any closer to God. My conclusion after Biblical study of tongues is this: the gift of the Spirit I need most and desire to have is LOVE [as Paul suggests in 1 Corinthians 13]; the original use of tongues was so foreign people, who came into Jerusalem around the time of Pentecost, could hear and understand the story of Jesus [ And presumably take this story back with them to their own community]. I have heard a couple of stories that this does still happen today just as in the early apostolic type gifting. And then there are Churches who believe in cessationism and that none of those early apostolic gifts still exist.<br />As far as physical manifestations on the person supposedly touched by the Holy Spirit, I'm sure what you saw in 1970 still happens today and I have seen it on some TV shows. ie falling, twitching, etc. Those manifestations were never really mentioned in the Bible, [unless falling on ones face in fear and trembling before angels - as in the story of Gideon or Daniel is the same] so tend to be skeptical. I have watched documentaries about "the Brownsville revival" which exhibited some rather bizarre phenomenon [mid-90's] Some people who were part of this movement were genuinely converted and still follow Christ still but it as a whole it faded away. Saw a man who was debunking that movement on video with interesting footage of the similar physical manifestations in a particular Indian religion - a Hindu Kundalini spirit. This is a real eye opener! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WfXmDkQiE2o. Watch it for your self - it is a 28 min video. However this begs one to have to decide: if it isn't a holy spirit then of what spirit is it? Unholy? But if you are atheist then you have to conclude this phenomenon is strictly psychological leading to a physical manifestation. If I was to meet an individual who had experienced what you saw in 1970, I probably would not say anything to them...believing that even if this phenom is bunk that they would continue studying the word of God and let Him do the teaching.<br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7251693339364322895.post-88141587308757256872017-04-02T07:24:09.198-05:002017-04-02T07:24:09.198-05:00Thanks for your thoughts, especially regarding the...Thanks for your thoughts, especially regarding the "tell" of red flame accents on church signs. I will look for that. I have always wondered if the reference to speaking in tongues in the NT is the same phenomenon practiced by modern day charismatics. There is certainly some sort of psychological event going on, similar in some ways to psychoactive drugs.JOHN PHILLIPShttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06357524637192990158noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7251693339364322895.post-46882466827990397932017-04-02T02:49:38.084-05:002017-04-02T02:49:38.084-05:00Hmmmmmm......Yea, I also believe they are sincere....Hmmmmmm......Yea, I also believe they are sincere. I believe experience is highly pleasureable. Still going on....at least it was 15 years ago in my Seattle suburb, Kirkland. I think if u see a church with red flame accents around name they participate. Come to think about it, at my neighbors open house 2 years ago when they moved in......a sister told me that they all talked in tongues......Im a bit chagrined to admit I have given them a fairly wide berth ever since......didnt remember why since then...."fear of the other" is my only explanation fir my behavior. I have no idea what is going on with the "talking in tongues"......I do know the SDAs taught ms it was the devil causing it. In the 80s I had a thoroughly unpleasant experience with some of these folks.......but it was the people.....not the experience. May be time to reinvestigate. Thx for ur essay.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16037115665666929752noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7251693339364322895.post-1192065442663511722017-04-01T17:47:49.740-05:002017-04-01T17:47:49.740-05:00Yes. I have read Elmer Gantry but not The Great D...Yes. I have read Elmer Gantry but not The Great Derangement. I will have to check it out. There's also a movie from many years ago, MarJoe, a documentary that addresses this. But those relate to essentially fraudulent situations. I believe this guy, as well as his congregation, were sincere. Although, who knows?JOHN PHILLIPShttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06357524637192990158noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7251693339364322895.post-82229736127579108672017-04-01T16:59:02.251-05:002017-04-01T16:59:02.251-05:00Having read this I recommend Elmer Gantry by Sincl...Having read this I recommend Elmer Gantry by Sinclair Lewis and The Great Derangement by Matt Taibbi. Both excellent reflections on what you have described.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com